Curse

kostolomac · Jun 06, 2008, 06:41 AM // 06:41

I would gladly lose ursan and pve skills IF:
Monsters lose their monster only skills
Enviromental effects are removed
Monsters are given good bars(in HM and elite areas).
The buffs to monsters in HM should be smaller(only more hp and energy).
If you want build wars that's how it should be : my build and skill versus monsters build and AI , right now it's my build and skill versus monsters build , their AI and moster only skills which compared to normal skills are overpowered.

And more important I see people talking about how guild wars should be played or the vision of GW. Only the devs know that , we can only guess

DarkNecrid · Jun 06, 2008, 06:54 AM // 06:54

They should take longer because they give you better rewards and are harder. Yes, they should have a save system like WoW's instances do, but they don't because Anet is silly.

Avarre · Jun 06, 2008, 07:22 AM // 07:22

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

And more important I see people talking about how guild wars should be played or the vision of GW. Only the devs know that , we can only guess

The devs have no more idea than we do, if not less. Why do you think there are continual band-aid patches to try to fix their gaping design holes they don't recognize until much later? They don't play the game as much as the community, and it shows, because the community usually identifies flaws and presents ideas how to fix them much faster and much better than the devs do.

Look at Nightfall - both of the new classes they introduced were so dramatically flawed they had to both be significantly overhauled. You can't hope to argue the devs knew clearly what they were doing when they introduced them. Guild Wars was, to me, an accidental success and developers aren't exactly sure what to do with the game now - so they took a logical route of milking it for profit while they try to apply what they learned through trial and error development into Guild Wars 2.

The devs seem to have trouble grasping exactly what it is that makes their game fun and unique, and are rampaging around wildly trying to amplify that unknown like a blind porcupine in a balloon store.

Innocent · Jun 06, 2008, 07:59 AM // 07:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by Antheus

No, it's not overpowered.

Why don't all you elitists think of us casuals once. We only log in once a month for 15 minutes. We can't spend 8 hours every day playing with pvp FOTM builds. This skill is what we want. It's what's really making us love GW. It has improved the game so much.

We are all sick of HA elitist snobs dictating how pve should be. SF is finally properly balanced. So is ether renewal. And stop talking about soul reaping. It needs to go back and minion cap needs to be removed.

This has improved the game so much. It's finally making me enjoy my 15 minutes a month without some pvp jerks pushing their snobbery on me. Finally something for us that cannot spend years of our life perfecting some cookie cutter builds.

I can now finally PUG without discrimination, and I finally managed to beat THK thanks to this. PvE has finally been balanced around common player. This has improved my questing and mission experience so much. Now all we need is Hard Mode to be toned down. That place is insane. Think of the casuals. Why can't it be made like normal mode? Why does everything need to be centered around elitists.

Cheers. Finally a smart move by Anet. Hope to see many more like this. This has improved my enjoyment of the game so much. Thank you again. Hope to see many more.

PS. Who knows, maybe someone will even take the above seriously, and this thread will go down in flames....

You know, you call yourself a "casual" player, yet you desire to have the things that "elitist snobs" get. Need I go on?

zwei2stein · Jun 06, 2008, 08:26 AM // 08:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Innocent

You know, you call yourself a "casual" player, yet you desire to have the things that "elitist snobs" get. Need I go on?

Oh my god, it actually happened!

Sjeng · Jun 06, 2008, 09:19 AM // 09:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

It's not an issue with the players using the skills. They're not even part of the issue. The problem is the introduction of ridiculous PvE grind skills shows the developers are more than willing to abandon their original game design if they think they can make a profit.

This erodes confidence that they will produce quality games in the future.

Okay, well, I understand that, and I agree too. But I get the feeling not everyone in this topic has the same vision. Some people are actually calling it a problem when players use "imba" skills. As you explained that isn't the issue, I also don't think that CAN be a problem. I just replied to the "DL-DU" argument being called non-valid. If this whole discussion is really about the developers, then the whole "DL-DU" argument isn't important here like you said, but people still keep on discussing it, so I was under the impression that some do think it's a problem when players like to use ursan or whatever.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Lopezus

Well it can also be percieved as broadening of the game design to give people more choices and let players to decide what they like and how they want to play the game as i don't see the changes having mandatory impact.

Exactly. I feel that way too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yichi

Wrong again. It started with factions where players were forced to grind reputation points to proceed further in the game. It has only gotten worse since with the providing of skills/items linked to the grind.

All right, I'll give you that. But be honest: the required 10.000 faction could easily be gotten from quest rewards. You didn't have to "grind" for it, you only needed to do the quests. It's account wide, so you could fill your faction bars with multiple characters and just keep them filled untill your characters had passed HzH and Cavalon.
Same with EotN reputation points: although this isn't account-wide, just playing through EotN can get you to R5 easily. That's all you need to be able to buy armor, which, mind you, isn't required to finish the game.[/quote]

Quote:

Originally Posted by DreamWind

You don't see a problem?? Are you serious? Well then honestly there is nothing I can say to you to make you realize there is a problem.

Let me just say this. A lot of people liked the original idea of Guild Wars. A lot of people gave Anet money because they liked the original idea of Guild Wars. Now that original idea has completely changed, and some people that gave Anet money and liked the franchise how it was really hate what happened. As Avarre brilliantly stated....it erodes confidence in those players that anything quality will be released in the future.

That answer is a lot clearer to me after I read Avarre's reply. I can understand what you're saying, and I can relate to you, but I don't know if all these changes really changed the game that much...

So to summarize, I think that the developers are just trying to keep the game alive by:
a- implementing changes from time to time
b- trying to listen to the community's wishes

But that will always result in a part of the community loving the changes, and others hating them. That's just logical.

So my conclusion would be: we all understand Anet cannot possibly keep everybody happy. So there will always be complaints. But even with grind titles and grind skills and PvE skills that can make PvE a lot easier (or too easy) for some, and a lot more fun for others, I still feel players can still simply choose to use these new skills or to persue these new titles. They don't have to... I still feel the basis of the game is still the same. All this stuff is just topping on the GW-cake. Lots of people love it and use it, others hate it.
I'm sorry, but even after reading, and understanding, your explanations (and thanks for that, these were the first clear anwers I got here), I don't think it's that big of a problem as people make it to be... You can still do the same things in GW you did 3 years ago, while others enjoy the new stuff.

Quote:

Originally Posted by King Symeon

And before someone starts rambling to me about how I can choose not to use PvE skills to make it more challenging: that doesn't change any of the things I've just mentioned. The original design has been violated - that is a fact.

Well, I think "violated" is a bit dramatic, don't you think? GW is still good ol' GW imho. Anet just added stuff to please people and keep it interesting. If others think this is violating the original game, well, I can understand you're upset, but is it really that bad? MMORPG's change. Developers want to keep the game alive. I just don't feel it's that bad at all.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MithranArkanere

It's PvE! Monsters should have stronger weaknesses and strengths! You can make ALL Prophecies and factions with the same Fire magic build, regardless of updates, without problems at all, without consumables or PVE skills, in both hard and normal mode.

Make Nightmares immune to dark damage.
Make elemenals immune to their own element.
Make some creatures immune to certain types of physical damage...

That way people will have to change!

Hey, I would actually like that, but only in HM

But I'm afraid it's too late for that now...

RotteN · Jun 06, 2008, 10:04 AM // 10:04

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

The problem with "elite" areas is that without Ursan et al., they take too long. PvE had areas that took so long, that casual players could never beat them, no matter their player skills. PvE had areas where "time" became more important than "skill". It is ironic that they fixed this by making the game even more about "time", but this time your progress is safed every little step. So even casual players can finish that and then be able to beat the "elite" areas.

This is actually the most valid "pro-PvE-skills"-point. I admit that without Ursan i would've probably never even entered DoA. I simply have no desire to go stand around taking a beating as obs tank, cause it's boring, and not something i want to do for 4 hours for the sake of finishing a zone.

You can QQ all you want about the PvE updates, but putting out all content in reach of a larger playerbase is a good thing when your game is 3 years old and on it's way of getting replaced by a next-gen title.

DarkNecrid · Jun 06, 2008, 10:09 AM // 10:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by RotteN

This is actually the most valid "pro-PvE-skills"-point. I admit that without Ursan i would've probably never even entered DoA. I simply have no desire to go stand around taking a beating as obs tank, cause it's boring, and not something i want to do for 4 hours for the sake of finishing a zone.

You can QQ all you want about the PvE updates, but putting out all content in reach of a larger playerbase is a good thing when your game is 3 years old and on it's way of getting replaced by a next-gen title.

soooo

make more content that's accessible to everyone? removing the eliteness of an elite area isn't the way to go man.

WoW has tons of non-raiding content, plus raiding content, plus high end raiding content....there's stuff to keep any kind of player casual/hardcore/the inbetween, busy.

Sjeng · Jun 06, 2008, 10:47 AM // 10:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

soooo

make more content that's accessible to everyone? removing the eliteness of an elite area isn't the way to go man.

a) Anet isn't going to add new content, you know that. They're working on GW2. Imho it's great they still bother with Gw1 at all.
b) the "eliteness" isn't toned down, they just implemented PvE skills for those who do not have time to play it the hard way, or just aren't that good at elite missions. These people can now choose to use ursan or w/e and play DoA, whilst before only the elite with well-balanced skillbars and lots of time could do it. And these elitists still can do it the way they want. So the eliteness is only removed if you choose to take imba skills. (Besides, I think it's still hard enough xD )

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

WoW has tons of non-raiding content, plus raiding content, plus high end raiding content....there's stuff to keep any kind of player casual/hardcore/the inbetween, busy.

Gw also had TONS of stuff to do to keep you busy. If you've already done them all, well, then you're finished aren't you? So, just like with any other game that you've played through, you move on to a new game. (WoW?) OR you can create a new character and start over ^^.

cellardweller · Jun 06, 2008, 11:05 AM // 11:05

I should know better than to wade into a 25 page thread but I guess I'm just not a quick learner

Over the top PvE skills change the game by their very existence, whether you choose to use them or not - that is the problem. The harder areas of the game are enjoyable simply because they are hard - They are the "mountains" of the game that you can aim at conquering. What skills like ER/SY/TNTF/Ursan etc do is turn the mountains into hills - the challenge that they once posed has now been eroded into meaninglessness. Simply pretending that these options do not exist doesn't turn the hill back into a mountain - it ties your hands and feet together. While pulling yourself up a big hill with your teeth might be as difficult as scaling a mountain, it certainly is not as rewarding.

If you're loving the PvE skills and you feel that others are just elitists trying to impose their gaming style on you, you're fooling yourself. The other side of the fence is simply trying get back the enjoyable passtime that has been taken away from them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by RotteN

This is actually the most valid "pro-PvE-skills"-point. I admit that without Ursan i would've probably never even entered DoA. I simply have no desire to go stand around taking a beating as obs tank, cause it's boring, and not something i want to do for 4 hours for the sake of finishing a zone.

The longest area of DoA is foundry which takes just over 90 minutes with a 6 hero balanced party. If they wanted to make these areas more accessible to casual players, they'd add henchmen to the as that is arguably the largest obstacle preventing casual players from finishing elite zones.

DarkNecrid · Jun 06, 2008, 11:31 AM // 11:31

Quote:

a) Anet isn't going to add new content, you know that. They're working on GW2. Imho it's great they still bother with Gw1 at all.
b) the "eliteness" isn't toned down, they just implemented PvE skills for those who do not have time to play it the hard way, or just aren't that good at elite missions. These people can now choose to use ursan or w/e and play DoA, whilst before only the elite with well-balanced skillbars and lots of time could do it. And these elitists still can do it the way they want. So the eliteness is only removed if you choose to take imba skills. (Besides, I think it's still hard enough xD )

I swear to RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing god, the next person who brings up Don't Like it Don't use it, I'm just gonna straight up report for trolling. Seriously. :/

Quote:

Gw also had TONS of stuff to do to keep you busy. If you've already done them all, well, then you're finished aren't you? So, just like with any other game that you've played through, you move on to a new game. (WoW?) OR you can create a new character and start over ^^.

Or I could PvP! Hey that's an excellent idea.

I already play WoW, however, unlike WoW, and well, every online game out there (note: not just MMO's), Anet refuses to add content now. That's gr8. It also makes me less likely to buy GW2 (well, I'll buy it since PvP is UAX, if the beta PvP is any good) since, whats the point since when GW3 comes out they'll just leave it in the dust too.

Sjeng · Jun 06, 2008, 01:40 PM // 13:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

I swear to RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing god, the next person who brings up Don't Like it Don't use it, I'm just gonna straight up report for trolling. Seriously. :/

Why? because you don't want to admit it's true?
because you just don't want to place yuorself in other people's perspective?
I have, as you can read in my previous posts. I quoted people and explained my vision. My personal vision is very clear:
*I do NOT feel the game has changed.
*I do NOT think the game has become less fun to players, PvE-skill haters or not.
*I do still think players have a choice.
*I do not think these changes have affected the game.

That's just my opinion. Why would you report me for that? I'm entitled to post my opinion, I've even explained my opinion without insulting people.
So please be an adult about it and don't say nonsense like reporting people who happe to have a different opinion than yours. Kthxbai.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

Anet refuses to add content now. That's gr8. It also makes me less likely to buy GW2

...Why is it so hard to understand the REASON there isn't going to be new content in GW1 is BECAUSE Anet's developers are working on GW2. If they spent their time on GW1, GW2 would be less good as it is going to be now. (of course I have no idea HOW good it's going to be, but by spending time on GW1 it would only get worse.) Would you rather have them spend their time on GW1 now, and screw up GW2? Not very logical...

DarkNecrid · Jun 06, 2008, 01:54 PM // 13:54

Quote:

Why? because you don't want to admit it's true?

No, because it's been refuted 5000 times already. Shut up.

Quote:

...Why is it so hard to understand the REASON there isn't going to be new content in GW1 is BECAUSE Anet's developers are working on GW2. If they spent their time on GW1, GW2 would be less good as it is going to be now. (of course I have no idea HOW good it's going to be, but by spending time on GW1 it would only get worse.) Would you rather have them spend their time on GW1 now, and screw up GW2? Not very logical...

i'd rather them spend their time on GW1, and make GW2 take longer. It doesn't "screw up GW2", are you kidding me? It just makes it take longer to come out, which is perfectly alright for me.

Right now, all they're doing is abandoning GW1, and if that's what they're gonna do, then why buy GW2 when they're just gonna abandon it 3 years down the road? Adding new content, even just a new area, is more than enough for awhile. The end-game area to Prophecies was very good! But give us something with enemies. :/

Bryant Again · Jun 06, 2008, 03:31 PM // 15:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

*snip* The problem with "elite" areas is that without Ursan et al., they take too long...

Then make the areas end quicker (i.e. make easier) in normal mode instead of making a widespread band-aid effect that renders the point of hard mode to uselessness. This is what they did for normal mode DoA and it was actually a very solid and good idea.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

That is the unwanted side effect. But I don´t think, they will ever change that.

And why won't they change it? It's not a happy answer.

Tyla · Jun 06, 2008, 03:45 PM // 15:45

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kashrlyyk

The problem with "elite" areas is that without Ursan et al., they take too long.

That's not a problem. You should make sure you have enough time on your hands if you're doing elite areas.

DarkNecrid · Jun 06, 2008, 04:13 PM // 16:13

lol a mod deleted it. that's good! that means I can do the same vs the same stupid argument too.

Elite areas are no longer elite, and while this happens in other MMORPGs because of equipment going through progression, this happened because Anet likes to make everything easy.

Stuff is not meant to be equal. Players are not equal, they all have varying skill levels.

Elite areas are designed to be that: elite. Hard. Require masterful amounts of skill, and yes, time. With a big reward.

Opening up a game completely to a casual player, makes having a hard game completely impossible. Any good player will not gimp themselves, because gimping yourself is retarded.

If you didn't like the fact that Elite areas were long....either find the time to do them and get better, or don't do them. That's just the way it is. They are specifically structured to be a challenge. (though they aren't, anymore. Even to a new player who I had do it, it was easy. And he sucks at this game)

A ton of PvErs do the same for PvP content sooo.

Destroying a part of the game for the casual player, is terrible. If you're gonna do that, make NM easy, and casual, and short, and HM way harder and long. Or rather, add new content and make the older areas easier if need be. Either way, it's way better than making PvE a complete "roll face over keyboard to win" fest it has become now.

Sjeng · Jun 06, 2008, 09:08 PM // 21:08

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

No, because it's been refuted 5000 times already. Shut up.

It hasn't been refuted once. People only disagreed. All this thread has done is strengthen the DLDU argument. Did I tell YOU to shut up? No. So be polite.

Quote:

Originally Posted by DarkNecrid

i'd rather them spend their time on GW1, and make GW2 take longer. It doesn't "screw up GW2", are you kidding me? It just makes it take longer to come out, which is perfectly alright for me.

Might be allright for some, but Anet needs money. People want new games. Sure, a new GW1 chapter might have had the same result, but well, that's marketing for ya.

Skye Marin · Jun 06, 2008, 10:29 PM // 22:29

I think the strongest argument toward the DLDU argument, is that these skills do impact how people play, in terms of player elitism. Basically, if you don't have Rank X of Ursan, you can't make it into a certain DoA group.

If Anet spends resources on changing up EP and Ursan, then the next strongest builds are simply going to take their place.

Then what?

Folks will have something new to complain about, I guess.

PuG groups that desire efficiency will still want and use the easiest to form and easiest to run builds. It's natural to take the path of least resistance when the potential for frustration and failure is very real.

They could do it again, but it won't end and it won't help. The functional survival of PvE isn't based on the skill and monster balance, like it is in PvP, so changes to satisfy groups claiming that the game is now too easy would really be a waste of resources that could, instead, be used on GW2 and new, actual content.

Bryant Again · Jun 06, 2008, 10:29 PM // 22:29

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sjeng

It hasn't been refuted once. People only disagreed. All this thread has done is strengthen the DLDU argument. Did I tell YOU to shut up? No. So be polite.

It's the fact that the "don't like it don't use it" can be used to excuse any and every single overpowered thing in the game.

"Don't like the new skill that kills every enemy in the explorable? Well, don't use it!"
"You say it's silly that ANet introduced a button that gives you 10000k instantly? Well, don't use it!"

It doesn't excuse the problem, it blatantly ignores it.

DreamWind · Jun 07, 2008, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Quote:

Originally Posted by Avarre

Guild Wars was, to me, an accidental success and developers aren't exactly sure what to do with the game now - so they took a logical route of milking it for profit while they try to apply what they learned through trial and error development into Guild Wars 2.

The devs seem to have trouble grasping exactly what it is that makes their game fun and unique, and are rampaging around wildly trying to amplify that unknown like a blind porcupine in a balloon store.

Your posts are epic.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sjeng

That answer is a lot clearer to me after I read Avarre's reply. I can understand what you're saying, and I can relate to you, but I don't know if all these changes really changed the game that much...

The game has undergone a complete and total change from its original vision. Many of the reasons why have been posted in this thread. Many others are posted in PvP forums. Nonetheless, it has definately happened. Getting into all the reasons why would take an extremely long post that I don't feel like making.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sjeng

It hasn't been refuted once. People only disagreed. All this thread has done is strengthen the DLDU argument. Did I tell YOU to shut up? No. So be polite.

It has been refuted numerous times. Let me put it shortly. If you don't use it, the problem remains. The problem is affecting the entire game. Thus, ignoring the problem means the problem is still affecting the entire game. Thank you.